tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4206925865771080897.post5506999446567767409..comments2024-01-11T11:50:49.647-05:00Comments on Compassion in Action: Still Trying For A Response...Ryanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15550690186896747069noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4206925865771080897.post-615064722510160732012-03-01T20:59:25.576-05:002012-03-01T20:59:25.576-05:00p.s. its noirs. or should I address you bradely?p.s. its noirs. or should I address you bradely?noirshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673793852120187640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4206925865771080897.post-27353944839815148312012-03-01T20:58:18.183-05:002012-03-01T20:58:18.183-05:00Bradley, I wasn't asking questions to solve my...Bradley, I wasn't asking questions to solve my confusion, I was asking questions to understand Ryan's question, and to point out the problems with it.noirshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673793852120187640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4206925865771080897.post-4545078361765918342012-03-01T20:52:25.035-05:002012-03-01T20:52:25.035-05:00Wow. You essentially said nothing. Sounds like y...Wow. You essentially said nothing. Sounds like you are gay and passionate about defendIng that, rather than interested in truth. Try again, with some sense and substance!!! You sound smart, and I bet a lot of people think you are...however, this response suggests you are incredibly foolish.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4206925865771080897.post-29090961472376015152012-03-01T20:42:14.140-05:002012-03-01T20:42:14.140-05:00Word!!!!Word!!!!Bradleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4206925865771080897.post-78512619040643933982012-03-01T20:40:15.461-05:002012-03-01T20:40:15.461-05:00Noris, for the most Of the thread you seemed mega ...Noris, for the most Of the thread you seemed mega ignorant on what immoral/ moral is founded by...I see in this post, you opine, a moral position. How do you stand on grounds you are confused on?Bradleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4206925865771080897.post-8127673751874742452012-03-01T18:43:57.243-05:002012-03-01T18:43:57.243-05:00Thanks for taking the time to share Eric.Thanks for taking the time to share Eric.Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15550690186896747069noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4206925865771080897.post-74648888269297278172012-03-01T17:12:47.188-05:002012-03-01T17:12:47.188-05:00First of all, I think you're equating love wit...First of all, I think you're equating love with sex. I presume when you talk about incest you're referring to the morality of an incestuous sexual relationship; you wouldn't be having this discussion if we were referring to a platonic love between relatives. This same argument goes for homosexuality, but a lot of people cannot separate homosexual sex from homosexual love - both are considered immoral by a lot of people. There are many reasons why gay people enter into relationships - companionship, pooling of financial resources, looking after each other in sickness or old age, for example. Don't boil everything down to sex.<br /><br />There are plenty of reasons to condemn incest while accepting homosexual relationships. From the biological perspective, sex between closely related heterosexual individuals is likely to result in offspring that have a considerably higher incidence of genetic abnormalities. Sex between homosexual individuals cannot by definition result in children, so there is no risk of offspring born with genetic problems. Ditto for homosexual couples adopting children. Also, one could argue that there is an evolutionary advantage to having a small proportion of homosexuals in the general population. In a family, for example, gay individuals contribute to the resources of the extended family unit (financial, emotional, etc) without producing any offspring to compete for those resources. As a result, they contribute disproportionately to the well-being (and therefore the genetic survival) of the offspring of their close relatives who DO reproduce, thus helping to continue the family's genetic line.<br /><br />Also, an incestuous relationship in a family is likely to result in the breakdown of the family unit. For example, it would be difficult to imagine a family surviving intact the crisis of a parent having an incestuous relationship with one of their children, or the discovery of a sexual relationship between siblings. Broken families lead to higher rates of crime, poverty and violence - all things that society at large has a collective interest in minimizing. A loving family can certainly survive the revelation that a child is involved in a homosexual relationship - my own family did when I came out to them, and we're closer than ever now that I'm not hiding anything from them. A homosexual extramarital affair by a spouse is not so much a problem of the immorality of homosexuality but of adultery, which society quite rightly condemns.<br /><br />It's difficult to imagine an upside to an incestuous relationship, but I can think of plenty of reasons why homosexuality should be tolerated. It's not all about sex.Erichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04999369383582550513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4206925865771080897.post-52486506432947601402012-03-01T16:19:30.632-05:002012-03-01T16:19:30.632-05:00However even religious "morality" (claim...However even religious "morality" (claimed to come from a "god") isn't based on anything definite, as there are PLENTY of examples of things that we can agree are absolutely immoral (slavery, genocide, human sacrifice, killing people for eating shellfish or working on a weekend, and so on) that are presented as not only "moral", but are COMMANDED in the buybull. As far as incest goes, the story of Lot presents a quirky little tale of exactly this, with no sort of reprobation at all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4206925865771080897.post-738127513323960172012-03-01T15:39:19.030-05:002012-03-01T15:39:19.030-05:00Personally, I think physically kidnapping people a...Personally, I think physically kidnapping people and locking them up (we call this prison) is immoral.<br /><br />What do you guys think here? you see Person A pick up Person B, take them home, lock them up, moral? immoral?<br /><br />What if Person B was having an incestuous relationship? Are A's actions now somehow moral?noirshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673793852120187640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4206925865771080897.post-84537925605605603522012-03-01T15:37:24.199-05:002012-03-01T15:37:24.199-05:00How about this: what are the implications of somet...How about this: what are the implications of something being moral or immoral?<br /><br />E.g. why should we care if something is immoral?<br /><br />a) so we can try to avoid it<br />b) so we can go to heaven<br />c) so we know when to feel guilty<br />d) to justify us putting people in jailnoirshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673793852120187640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4206925865771080897.post-30310867381565048612012-03-01T15:35:05.224-05:002012-03-01T15:35:05.224-05:00based on our current society my guess would be yes...based on our current society my guess would be yes. That's why public opinion is of low/no value - it is not anchored or based on anything of weight or true value.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4206925865771080897.post-37573847170612588802012-03-01T15:33:01.832-05:002012-03-01T15:33:01.832-05:00that brings us to one of the main points - what de...that brings us to one of the main points - what defines morality? as Ryan discusses, morality is a waving line that changes, so it's not really morality. maybe that is the point.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4206925865771080897.post-6596429242648960702012-03-01T15:31:19.699-05:002012-03-01T15:31:19.699-05:00Ryan is talking about the actual morality not perc...Ryan is talking about the actual morality not perceived reality - they are not the same.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4206925865771080897.post-20494700346605208852012-03-01T15:30:15.701-05:002012-03-01T15:30:15.701-05:00popular opinion is arbitrary and therefore has no ...popular opinion is arbitrary and therefore has no basis in logic, or morality or reason or anything solid that can be used as a judgement baseline. Proof of this abounds - that's why many controversial positions ultimately have to contradict their own standings. There is no such thing as morality apart from God because none of us in our own right have the capacity, or the right to define moral from immoral.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4206925865771080897.post-10583435972680327562012-03-01T14:32:53.679-05:002012-03-01T14:32:53.679-05:00yes noris, sorry for the struggle to get there...yes noris, sorry for the struggle to get there...Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15550690186896747069noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4206925865771080897.post-28027005215712286212012-03-01T14:28:22.850-05:002012-03-01T14:28:22.850-05:00I don't think there are any philosophical grou...I don't think there are any philosophical grounds to differentiate incest and homosexuality (apart from the possible genetic defects of offspring from incest).<br /><br />But thats not how "society" works. Probably the way society works is someone decides something is wrong, they convince everyone else its wrong, and now its wrong. Perhaps it started when people realized some of the implications of incest (often comes with abuse, defects in children), and telling people it is "immoral" was a simple way to stop people from doing it.noirshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673793852120187640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4206925865771080897.post-8716342735108687972012-03-01T14:25:31.683-05:002012-03-01T14:25:31.683-05:00"and I'm saying I don't know how soci..."and I'm saying I don't know how society defines it...hence my quest to know."<br /><br />Would it make more sense then to ask that question, e.g. what does society mean by moral and immoral?noirshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673793852120187640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4206925865771080897.post-70623508320163111302012-03-01T14:24:51.097-05:002012-03-01T14:24:51.097-05:00If you want you can use the dictionary definition ...If you want you can use the dictionary definition you quoted above:<br /><br />"violating moral principles; not conforming to the patterns of conduct usually accepted or established as consistent with principles of personal and social ethics. "<br /><br />So to rephrase your question: "on what grounds is incest immoral, meaning not conforming to patterns of conduct usually accepted or established as consistent with principles of personal and social ethics, whereas homosexuality is seen as moral?"noirshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673793852120187640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4206925865771080897.post-73173923566798838462012-03-01T14:24:34.197-05:002012-03-01T14:24:34.197-05:00and I'm saying I don't know how society de...and I'm saying I don't know how society defines it...hence my quest to know.Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15550690186896747069noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4206925865771080897.post-83165072426780385532012-03-01T14:22:44.598-05:002012-03-01T14:22:44.598-05:00I think I'm asking a much simpler question. I...I think I'm asking a much simpler question. I'm basically just saying please define what you mean when you use the word moral/immoral.<br /><br />So, you ask "on what moral grounds homosexuality is moral, but incest is not" and I am just looking for more detail on what you mean by the words moral and immoral as used in your question.noirshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673793852120187640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4206925865771080897.post-11968408222688468912012-03-01T14:16:23.661-05:002012-03-01T14:16:23.661-05:00Of course there are. I don't see a 'back ...Of course there are. I don't see a 'back and forth' over a thread proving anything to you. For example, I say, "the bible says, the wges of sin is death" and "Jesus came to give us life"..."therefore obey his commands", then you come back with something that disagrees with that and undermines it like, "what is death and is God judging with death"...or something like it for example, then I say, "no, its a consequence to choice", then a common response is, "how could a loving God...xyz" or "prove to me God exists" then the debate ends. So I have learned not to go on such paths. So I worte trying to understand how society thinks. How Christians think is fairly simple. Love God. Love others. Follow the playbook to do the love thing well. Where we miss the mark, sin, do immoral stuff, there is a God who loves us and forgives us. Proving this to peole is likely impossible, so I don't try. Instead, I try to live out a life of loving people, which I have found is both well received and comes with no 'counter arguments' or demands for proof. People appreciate being loved. I struggle to 'love people' over debates when I don't even know who Noris is. Hope this helps you understand why i don't entertain some of your questions...although some other questions you ask are thought provoking.Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15550690186896747069noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4206925865771080897.post-88959088523081260462012-03-01T13:25:18.934-05:002012-03-01T13:25:18.934-05:00Actually, both incest and homosexuality have been ...Actually, both incest and homosexuality have been considered 'moral' in various cultures down the ages. Think Egypt (Pharaoh would marry sister) and ancient Greece (Sparta - male; Sappo - female) as two well known cultures. No doubt there are more.Franceshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16277713882450290045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4206925865771080897.post-5335641320256038432012-03-01T13:04:28.072-05:002012-03-01T13:04:28.072-05:00I'm still not clear on what you mean by immora...I'm still not clear on what you mean by immoral. If there are no implications to something being immoral, then I don't think saying something is immoral means anything.noirshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04673793852120187640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4206925865771080897.post-11521569999687022172012-03-01T12:01:22.709-05:002012-03-01T12:01:22.709-05:00mistake does not mean immoral.
When I mouth off an...mistake does not mean immoral.<br />When I mouth off and am rude, that is immoral and I stive to work on that.Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15550690186896747069noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4206925865771080897.post-22038131444967943742012-03-01T11:59:55.093-05:002012-03-01T11:59:55.093-05:00Orientation? Like, they are born a certain way? ...Orientation? Like, they are born a certain way? This has no bearing on morality. This would be a crutch for people who want to be immoral..Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com